Comments on: A non-degree-holder’s view of hiring decisions

By: Bart

Bart — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 18:54:46 +0000

Well this is a little late coming into this discussion but it still holds true and some may find it interesting reading. I am without a degree. I’ve worked in the aerospace field as a manufacturing Engineer for 34 years. My age is 55. My brothers (older) both hold degrees but me being the youngest was left behind to fin for myself. My dad pasted when I was 12 and my mom became ill when I was 20. So I was left to care for her not to mention I was married. Not looking for sympathy. Just painting a picture. I was never one for structured education (Like Einstein) served no purpose. Although I excelled. It never gave me skills or taught me things that mattered in real life. Remember I needed life skills. I needed to learn how to be a man. College was not the answer. I started my career with a major aerospace company and excelled over an eleven year period from the shop floor to Manufacturing Engineering. Why because I was good. Very good with composite materials and managers recognized this and promoted me. I could out do many degreed individuals. Most times they were useless. When the shit hit the fan they called on me. So in many respects I blame the company for putting me in a position that was so stressful that going to school at night would have been suicide. This always seemed to be the case. Company after company. Some would even frown at the thought of leaving work to go to school or attend family matters. Quality of life and betterment of ones career over cost and schedule was Russian roulette. So after 34 years working for major aerospace companies and achieving many positions in engineering and management and a host of certificates and accomplishments valued in the millions of dollars in savings to companies I have recently been slapped in the face by a company I previously worked (9 years) for but was consumed by another company has rejected me from a position because I don’t have a degree. What a laugh. Shows you just how far removed we’ve become as a society. That’s like telling God that just because you created the world you can’t be allowed to create anymore because you don’t have a degree. That’s like telling Einstein that your theory of relativity doesn’t apply anymore because you don’t have a degree or Bill Gates that all your computer genius we can’t use and everyone must stop using the hardware and software because you don’t have a degree or Richard Branson and Michael Dell. You can see the stinking thinking that exists. If we continue to do business as a society or company we are doomed as a culture. Some individuals enjoy structured education they think in theory alone so what’s wrong with free thinkers? They function at a higher level genius of abstract thinking. I boast an IQ of 130. I’m able to create in my mind before I even put pen to paper. After I’ve resolved all possibilities. Then I create and produce. Thus eliminating problems, road blocks, errors, lost time and money. I’m able to perform on time and under budget again and again. While the college grad sits and contemplates, scratches and figures using all his theories and book knowledge. I’m done. Finished onto my next project. Many college grads are foot draggers, bull shitters, lazy and just plain stupid. They were forced to go to school or get kicked out at home. They’ve achieved a level of incompetent manager. It’s like the people you went to high school with who were the worst trouble makers in school and now there policeman. LOL.
Individuals that have learned to scrap and claw there way to achieve there goals are more well rounded, grounded and mature adults than any graduate. I wouldn’t change a thing about my career. The best combination of team members I’ve ever had the privilege of participating in was a mix of degreed and non degreed.
That’s my story and I’m sticking with it. To all you hiring managers that disagree. Your company will eventually fail.

By: Sean

Sean — Fri, 18 Apr 2008 18:00:50 +0000

The best developers I’ve ever worked with did not have degrees. The best managers I’ve ever worked for did not have degrees (and could care less about whether their team had them). I long for the team I worked on awhile back, at a really cool company that was ahead of their time and got sacrificed to the dot-com-bomb and the lack of willing investors after the fact. I worked with the best, brightest team of guys I’ve ever worked with since. Some had degrees. Some didn’t. But, it didn’t matter, because they were all part of the team.

One guy with no degree (in fact, not even a high school diploma) was hacking electronics. We’re talking about tearing apart various home electronics and breaking out an oscilloscope. I don’t know many computer engineering majors that could actually do that on their own. Beyond that, he can code circles around anybody I know, with or without a degree.

Another guy has a drama degree, and kicks ass at developing great software and getting it done fast. He also comes up with more creative solutions than anybody I know. He didn’t have to escape from the box, because he was never in it.

Another guy went to school for vocal talent, and is one class short of having his degree in that. He was writing computer games in the 8th grade on a C64. Now he writes computer games for modern computers, and he was invited to present at a game developers conference by Sun.

Compare that to the 200 developers I work with now, whom all are H1B’s with degrees, many with advanced degrees, that don’t understand basic database transaction logic or how to write efficient code. I have to train everybody we hire on simple things like when to use PreparedStatements. Nobody had to teach me that, but nobody coming out of college seems to be able to pick these things up on their own. I don’t know why.

A degree is an accomplishment, I have no doubt of that. I wish I’d finished mine when I was in school, and I encourage everyone to. My college years were the best years of my life, but I spent too much time trying to take the world by storm and didn’t just sit back and and enjoy it. I wish I’d stayed for 4 rather than dropping out at 2. But, at this point, it doesn’t make sense to go back. To go back would mean that I’d either give up my evenings (when I’m spending my time still trying to create the next big thing), or I’d have to quit my job (which has a very bad value for opportunity cost if you’ve taken your econ courses). So, I don’t think I’ll ever be able to do it now, and I look back on my not finishing as a failure that hangs over me.

So, if you’re in school, finish it while you’re there, you won’t regret it. But, if you’re not crazy about going and getting a degree, and you’re a motivated self-starter, study on your own, just do things. Write some computer games. Hack some electronics. There is nothing that you learn at a University that you can’t learn on your own, most likely much faster than in an instructor lead class (because the other students that don’t have your aptitude will hold the entire class up). You can also focus on the things that really count. I took all the Physics, Chem, etc., and I really loved those classes because I find all science interesting. But, those classes have done me not one bit of good in my professional life, so other than for enjoyment, they were an utter waste of time. I’m still glad I took them. Maybe they make me more well-rounded, but honestly, what’s the use of that?

By: Dave

Dave — Tue, 08 Apr 2008 22:59:50 +0000

I think the frustration we degree less tech workers have is that we get paid to think, we solve problems for a living, we see the whole system as one, and after not too long the system leaves the tech world and encompasses the whole business and we see flaws, huge flaws. The first time you work next to an MBA who makes more but isnt more well rounded, isnt more educated and most importantly cant do the same job as well, you get frustrated.

But looking from the other side of the desk is the best approach. if HR is using degree as a filter, they make one massive assumption that is proven over and over and over to be completely wrong even the opposite of what is true. in the tech field its very dangerous to give weight to a persons degree, in fact, if that is a major component of their CV, you have the extra burden of making sure that education hasnt narrowed their mind. generally universities teach you what to think far more than how to think, so if your job is to solve new problems, you could be in trouble.

The other assumption made by many people who do hiring and who have degrees is that the rest of us were off partying while they were busting their ass in school. All I can say is that I went to a really hard non party school my freshman year and that was, though ‘hard work’ the easiest year of my adult life. what I did after that to survive and try to prove myself in order to get ahead, was so much harder and far more educational that college ever was.

It has taken a very long time but has in the end paid off, I took the harder job at every chance, I took the bigger risks, all my experience is hard won, ultimately making me a better employee. I did finally get an AA degree with a lousy 2.0 gpa, too much overtime work to pay for school to do a good job at school, but I just stopped going, it cost too much and didnt have enough value for the buck. Now I make 6 figures and am again contemplating finishing my degree, just to be allowed to apply for jobs at these companies who filter.

My greatest motivation to do that is that if I can get to the point were I am making the hiring decisions, I can take what I have learned and do a fantastic job at that, I will be able to build a team of the very best minds and keep them, they will get paid more than they are used to and without all that student loan debt they wont be nearly as hungry for more. I will still hire people with degrees but not in the same way as others would, if their only work experience past high school is working for their college off hours, then to me, they are 18 still, and I will give them a job that matches that, if they have really gotten a valuable education and can swallow their pride, they will move up fast, if not, they can go work for a company with a labotomy.

By: GerryC

GerryC — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:14:13 +0000

As I am currently working on a project team that has three people below me (all 5 years or less in the field) with three different educational backgrounds, I’ll share my petri dish as food for thought. I should preface this by stating while I work in environmental remediation and have a BS in my field, on the job training (OJT) has helped many people in my field just as much as a college degree.

I have one person who has a college degree directly related to the job, one who has a college degree with no OJT and the last has a significant amount of manual labor experience and OJT.

SUPER SHORT SUMMARY- The first person can roll with the job as it changes, the second kinda gets it and the last person relies heavily on their 3+ years of OJT. The last person sometimes makes incorrect associations based upon past experiences; mainly because of their attitude towards people with college degrees (or maybe the attitude of degree holders towards this person-hmmm…).

Don’t misunderstand me; OJT can and will do a lot for a person’s skill set. It’s certainly helped me. But it’s all about one’s attitude (something I am eternally grateful to my old roomate for pointing out). If someone has a good attitude going into a task or job they’ll pick up a lot.

I think the discrimination against non-degree holders in my field comes from a person’s baseline level of knowledge when they start a job. In most jobs time = $$, and if someone has an education that can be held up to a standard, well, they win. So there ya have it. $0.02.

By: Vidar Hokstad

Vidar Hokstad — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 15:23:54 +0000

I dropped out of university to start my first company. Years later I did an MSc part time mostly to get the paper, and frankly I found it largely a waste of my time. I _did_ learn some things, but my overall impression was that I learned less in the time I spent on the MSc. than I would have if I’d proceeded as I normally do and learned independently, because I spent so much time essentially proving that I knew things I’d learned ages ago. I see my degree mostly as a proof of some basic knowledge, and of relatively little relevance at the level I’m at, but it certainly has helped me past clueless recruiters on more than one occasion.