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	<title>Comments on: Programmers that&#8230; can&#8217;t program.</title>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.protocolostomy.com/2010/03/15/programmers-that-cant-program/comment-page-1/#comment-37030</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:42:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.protocolostomy.com/?p=724#comment-37030</guid>
		<description>The basic problem is the assumption of a degree equaling the ability to write decent code.  At the very least, it&#039;s an indictment of the kinds of graduates the average institution pumps out, but I think it might be more basic: a CS degree is *theory*.  Even with all the coding I had to do as an undergrad (over a decade ago, and in another country, I would add), I *never* thought for a minute that I could just go out with my degree in-hand and be a programmer (nor did I want to, but that&#039;s another story).  If people really want to solve this problem, make the profession of programmer one that requires a certification based on a set of standards.

Debate over the formation of said standards in 3...2...1...(but at least it abstracts the problem from the CS domain.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The basic problem is the assumption of a degree equaling the ability to write decent code.  At the very least, it&#8217;s an indictment of the kinds of graduates the average institution pumps out, but I think it might be more basic: a CS degree is *theory*.  Even with all the coding I had to do as an undergrad (over a decade ago, and in another country, I would add), I *never* thought for a minute that I could just go out with my degree in-hand and be a programmer (nor did I want to, but that&#8217;s another story).  If people really want to solve this problem, make the profession of programmer one that requires a certification based on a set of standards.</p>
<p>Debate over the formation of said standards in 3&#8230;2&#8230;1&#8230;(but at least it abstracts the problem from the CS domain.)</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.protocolostomy.com/2010/03/15/programmers-that-cant-program/comment-page-1/#comment-37024</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:34:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.protocolostomy.com/?p=724#comment-37024</guid>
		<description>&quot;but think of the pressure of the interview.&quot; 
And there&#039;s no pressure in being given something that affects the lives of thousands of people or more? Or a project that will either save or cost the company the better part of a million dollars? 
Pressure, shmessure. 
If someone can&#039;t listen to a (business) problem while under (deadline or interview) pressure and have a meaninful (whiteboard/paper napkin/elevator) discussion about said problem, do you really, REALLY want them on your team? 

Most of what a developer DOES is listen to business problems and deal with pressure and discuss and deliver solutions to said problems. If you can&#039;t do a simple iteration with substitution on the fly, well, you&#039;re probably better off going into academia. I kid, but professional development may not be for you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;but think of the pressure of the interview.&#8221;<br />
And there&#8217;s no pressure in being given something that affects the lives of thousands of people or more? Or a project that will either save or cost the company the better part of a million dollars?<br />
Pressure, shmessure.<br />
If someone can&#8217;t listen to a (business) problem while under (deadline or interview) pressure and have a meaninful (whiteboard/paper napkin/elevator) discussion about said problem, do you really, REALLY want them on your team? </p>
<p>Most of what a developer DOES is listen to business problems and deal with pressure and discuss and deliver solutions to said problems. If you can&#8217;t do a simple iteration with substitution on the fly, well, you&#8217;re probably better off going into academia. I kid, but professional development may not be for you.</p>
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		<title>By: j_king</title>
		<link>http://www.protocolostomy.com/2010/03/15/programmers-that-cant-program/comment-page-1/#comment-37022</link>
		<dc:creator>j_king</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:23:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.protocolostomy.com/?p=724#comment-37022</guid>
		<description>I have a hard time believing the Atwood article is anything short of hyperbole. Even Spolsky&#039;s.

I think geeks suffer from an idealism that probably stems from the natural tendency to seek rigor. So when they interview, if a candidate fails to meet their parameters they get tossed in the 99% pile. What a waste.

In a job-hunting situation people are forced into self-aggrandizement. You&#039;re trying to sell yourself and trade your time and experience for money. With all the competition out there and the positions that companies take when hiring people (an aggressive, &quot;we only hire the top 1%&quot; position), it&#039;s no surprise to me that most applicants I&#039;ve interviewed have padded their resumes. To me it seems perfectly natural.

I try and make a real connection with each person I interview. I like to disarm them and put it out on the table -- a few questions about pointer arithmetic and I know they don&#039;t actually know C. That&#039;s fine if I&#039;m hiring for a web developer position. I skip algorithms and most theory; web development is not brain surgery and all the positions I&#039;ve hired for it are entry level anyway. So I just focus on what&#039;s important and try to get a feel for whether they would get along with the other co-workers and be capable of contributing something other than headaches to the company.

It&#039;s unreasonable to expect applicants to entry-level jobs to be top-class engineers and know everything you do. Even if it&#039;s &quot;just fizzbuzz.&quot; Maybe they&#039;ve just read up on the latest and greatest web framework and made a few websites on their own. How would they even be exposed to a simple program like fizzbuzz? Does it even matter if your business is building websites?

You just have to be realistic. Top-class engineers don&#039;t build web sites. They build air-traffic control systems, industrial robots, and send satellites into orbit. Building dynamic web sites is easy and getting easier all the time.

Now I&#039;m not discounting the problem all together: people are prone to self-aggrandizement in the job-seeking atmosphere companies are creating. After all, if you are just starting out, how cool would it be to work at some of the most visible companies on the web? The signal-to-noise ratio is undoubtedly high but I don&#039;t see how adjusting your approach wouldn&#039;t remove the problem all together.

My tip? If they sound like they&#039;re younger than thirty and list more than two or three languages, take a look at the pile of resumes you still have to go through. If it&#039;s a lot, you might want to skip past them. I value honesty highly and tend to prefer resumes that fit on one page and list only the attributes and experience relevant directly to the position I&#039;m hiring for. This usually eliminates 99% of the pile before I even make interviews.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a hard time believing the Atwood article is anything short of hyperbole. Even Spolsky&#8217;s.</p>
<p>I think geeks suffer from an idealism that probably stems from the natural tendency to seek rigor. So when they interview, if a candidate fails to meet their parameters they get tossed in the 99% pile. What a waste.</p>
<p>In a job-hunting situation people are forced into self-aggrandizement. You&#8217;re trying to sell yourself and trade your time and experience for money. With all the competition out there and the positions that companies take when hiring people (an aggressive, &#8220;we only hire the top 1%&#8221; position), it&#8217;s no surprise to me that most applicants I&#8217;ve interviewed have padded their resumes. To me it seems perfectly natural.</p>
<p>I try and make a real connection with each person I interview. I like to disarm them and put it out on the table &#8212; a few questions about pointer arithmetic and I know they don&#8217;t actually know C. That&#8217;s fine if I&#8217;m hiring for a web developer position. I skip algorithms and most theory; web development is not brain surgery and all the positions I&#8217;ve hired for it are entry level anyway. So I just focus on what&#8217;s important and try to get a feel for whether they would get along with the other co-workers and be capable of contributing something other than headaches to the company.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s unreasonable to expect applicants to entry-level jobs to be top-class engineers and know everything you do. Even if it&#8217;s &#8220;just fizzbuzz.&#8221; Maybe they&#8217;ve just read up on the latest and greatest web framework and made a few websites on their own. How would they even be exposed to a simple program like fizzbuzz? Does it even matter if your business is building websites?</p>
<p>You just have to be realistic. Top-class engineers don&#8217;t build web sites. They build air-traffic control systems, industrial robots, and send satellites into orbit. Building dynamic web sites is easy and getting easier all the time.</p>
<p>Now I&#8217;m not discounting the problem all together: people are prone to self-aggrandizement in the job-seeking atmosphere companies are creating. After all, if you are just starting out, how cool would it be to work at some of the most visible companies on the web? The signal-to-noise ratio is undoubtedly high but I don&#8217;t see how adjusting your approach wouldn&#8217;t remove the problem all together.</p>
<p>My tip? If they sound like they&#8217;re younger than thirty and list more than two or three languages, take a look at the pile of resumes you still have to go through. If it&#8217;s a lot, you might want to skip past them. I value honesty highly and tend to prefer resumes that fit on one page and list only the attributes and experience relevant directly to the position I&#8217;m hiring for. This usually eliminates 99% of the pile before I even make interviews.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephan Deibel</title>
		<link>http://www.protocolostomy.com/2010/03/15/programmers-that-cant-program/comment-page-1/#comment-37019</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephan Deibel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.protocolostomy.com/?p=724#comment-37019</guid>
		<description>I used to ask people how they would go about counting occurrences of words in a 100MB text file and present them sorted with most common first.  I wasn&#039;t asking for code, or even an efficient way to do it, just a sketch of how to approach the problem as a one-time utility task.  There are so many ways to do this that span various types of programming expertise that I thought it was a fair question, but many failed entirely to even have the slightest idea.

My problem w/ the Fizz Buzz example is that half the time I can&#039;t remember that % is the mod operator since I rarely use it.  I could see people getting nervous and choking if they can&#039;t remember %.  As an interviewer, I&#039;d at least like to be able to separate out syntactic knowledge (not very important, especially for rarely used things) from ability to craft a simple algorithm (very important).

And yes, I&#039;ve been programming for 30+ years and I still either need to look up what the mod operator is or rely on semi-magical muscle memory to produce it.  If I think too hard about the syntax, I don&#039;t know what it is but if I am working away at the algorithmic level it sometimes just comes out of my fingers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I used to ask people how they would go about counting occurrences of words in a 100MB text file and present them sorted with most common first.  I wasn&#8217;t asking for code, or even an efficient way to do it, just a sketch of how to approach the problem as a one-time utility task.  There are so many ways to do this that span various types of programming expertise that I thought it was a fair question, but many failed entirely to even have the slightest idea.</p>
<p>My problem w/ the Fizz Buzz example is that half the time I can&#8217;t remember that % is the mod operator since I rarely use it.  I could see people getting nervous and choking if they can&#8217;t remember %.  As an interviewer, I&#8217;d at least like to be able to separate out syntactic knowledge (not very important, especially for rarely used things) from ability to craft a simple algorithm (very important).</p>
<p>And yes, I&#8217;ve been programming for 30+ years and I still either need to look up what the mod operator is or rely on semi-magical muscle memory to produce it.  If I think too hard about the syntax, I don&#8217;t know what it is but if I am working away at the algorithmic level it sometimes just comes out of my fingers.</p>
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		<title>By: m0j0</title>
		<link>http://www.protocolostomy.com/2010/03/15/programmers-that-cant-program/comment-page-1/#comment-37015</link>
		<dc:creator>m0j0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:15:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.protocolostomy.com/?p=724#comment-37015</guid>
		<description>For the record, &quot;short&quot; is not a virtue. It&#039;s a fun hobby to see how short you can make something, but if I came across that kind of code at work somebody would be getting a cluebrick thrown at them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the record, &#8220;short&#8221; is not a virtue. It&#8217;s a fun hobby to see how short you can make something, but if I came across that kind of code at work somebody would be getting a cluebrick thrown at them.</p>
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